Friendships, Boundaries + Knowing Who to Trust: Girl Talk with Middle School Social Worker Jen Kacin

Kaase Levell

Welcome back to FR, Let’s Talk Podcast. I am so excited to be joining you today with a new friend of mine…her name is Jennifer Kacin. She is a social worker in a middle school and she creates content to encourage teens and their parents. You can find her on YouTube or at her website, Compass Talks (www.compasstalks.com).

Jen, we're so excited to have you today. We're going to dive deep into ⁓ friendship conversation today. We're going to talk about things from a little bit different angle, but ⁓ I just want to welcome you and say thanks for joining us today. Do you want to just dive into a little bit about who you are and what your heartbeat is behind what you do?

Jen Kacin

Yeah, sure. Thank you so much for having me, Cassie. I, as you said, I work in a middle school. ⁓ My passion for working in a middle school really comes because I was severely bullied in middle school. And so, and God ⁓ just kind of redeemed that. And now I get to pour into kids in that season and I know the vulnerability of it ⁓ intimately. So I actually, my heart is actually for the kids who are bullied and the kids who are doing bullying. It's interesting ⁓ that God's given me a heart for both. ⁓ So I get to, it really feels like... humbling and an honor to be in those moments with kids when they're vulnerable, when they're hurting, and when they're looking for somebody to encourage them. So yeah, I don't necessarily get to pray with kids. I'm in a school, but I pray for them and I absolutely feel the presence of Jesus in their room. often, it just feels like holy ground ⁓ when I'm talking to these kids. So yeah.

Kaase Levell

Hmm... yes.

What an amazing opportunity. Let me ask you really quick before we go into some of our more pointed questions. What made you see kind of what was playing out in the school environment and then say, okay, I'm on the ground serving these kids day in and day out, but I want to do more. I want to take what I'm seeing and experiencing day to day and make it more applicable for their lives and sort of create Compass Talks. Tell me a little bit about sort of that desire behind that.

Jen Kacin

Yeah, so ⁓ when I'm in my office speaking to a kid, it's often God will give me this kind of this brain drop of wisdom to share with them. ⁓ Some of it is based on my training and experience, but some of it is very like the brain drop straight from the Lord. ⁓ And I found myself, I've been doing this work for about five years, maybe a little more. ⁓ And I found myself repeating some of the same foundational lessons over and over and over ⁓ to the point where I was like, okay, this is sort of universally needed in this season. 

And I had just this thought that someday I wanted to create a curriculum to give this to students, to their parents, to teachers. And so I did that. I created a video series ⁓ and I hope that it can really just equip.

Not only teenagers, but parents and teachers with this toolkit ⁓ to address like the big feelings, the insecurity, the relationship struggles that are so common. And it's not just in middle school. It's beyond. I mean, as I said, the Lord's given me these brain drop. It's for me too, you know? So, yeah, so it's been fun. It's been fun. And I'm learning how to do the business thing. So, very good at it.

Kaase Levell

Yeah, yes. It's a whole all-encompassing thing. It's not just the content. It's figuring out how do we make this work and get it into the hands of those who might need it. So, so blessed to have you on today. 

So today we're going to kind of dive deeper into friendships and maybe recognizing when we're in a toxic friendship or recognizing, hey, I'm in a relationship and or a friendship and a part of our friendship is the bully and just sort of recognizing different aspects to friendships that maybe we don't talk about as often or not like mainstream topics so I'm gonna dive in with a few questions you guys just to really kind of Stir the conversation with Jen. 

She's so equipped and has so much information I I have to really quickly dive into how I found Jen. I ⁓ have really just been digging into content that is robust and life-giving for this middle school and high school generation

And I found her just through Instagram and she was talking about on one of her videos this concept of happiness and how she will often meet teens in her ⁓ office at school and just what she's seeing is that happiness is something that maybe they're not feeling all the time and it's sort of a sadness or a weight that they feel when that happiness isn't there and how she kind of really redirected that concept of happiness and said, hey, let's look beyond the surface of what we think happy is and say, what am I grateful for and what is a deeper concept or meaning behind happiness? Like what are things that actually bring me joy? 

And so her content, you guys, is so life-giving and you need to head to compasstalks.com and just really absorb what she has to offer. It's so enriching and it's so life-giving for mom and kids. So just a plug really quick right there. Okay, Jen, let's go.

Jen Kacin 

Thank you.

Kaase Levell

So my first question is, why do you think that we sometimes stay in friendships that don't feel safe or kind? What is keeping kids in those lesser healthy friendships right now?

Jen Kacin

Yeah, there is a lot of fear when it comes to friendship. And when I really break it down, it's fear of being alone. ⁓ We don't want to be alone. specifically in a school environment, we don't know where to sit at lunch if we walk away from this friendship. So I address this fear in friendship a lot. ⁓ And I talked to kids about how friendship shouldn't feel like a performance. It shouldn't feel like you need to work hard for approval. 

And so, or to keep that friend, like you need to do this and this or dress this certain way, ⁓ or edit yourself in this way to be around this person. ⁓ Friendship really should feel like a mutual lifting up.

There's no such thing as a perfect friend. I can't be a perfect friend. You can't be a perfect friend. So we're not looking for perfection, but we are looking for, I heard someone say once and I loved it. We're all a hot mess, right? So we're looking for somebody that accepts our mess, encourages us in it, and we do the same for them. It's a mutual lifting up. And honestly, it's, 

I say this often too, it's when our goofy lines up. If I'm free to be goofy with you!!

Kaase Levell

So good. Right. Right.

Jen Kacin

you're a good friend. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, that's what it should feel like. So.

Kaase Levell

It's so good! I think that so often, I think you nailed it. I think so often the emphasis is put on, I meet their standard in my life? So if I need to have these jeans and my hair needs to look this way and I'm wearing all this makeup, like we're morphing and shape shifting to fit this role that we think that they want us to have. 

And the truth of the matter is it's real. Like that actually does exist. And to take that one step further, when we do fit that role or that mold, often we do see acceptance. However, that is not a healthy, ⁓ full friendship because it's really predicated then on this pretend version of ourselves, right? We're showing up someone else. 

We're not showing up authentic to who we are. So I think I love that like goofy. I love that goofy because I had a friend like that growing up and I think the reason it was so enriching was because we could literally both show up our authentic selves. And I think it was life-giving to both. I think it's really interesting that you nailed the fear piece of it. ⁓ speak to, do you think it's a fear of just not being accepted? Is it a fear of being left out? Is it just a fear of being alone? What do you think is the main fear driver?

Jen Kacin

All of it, think you said being left out. People are out and they don't invite you. There's a group chat and you're not…there’s an extra hangout or whatever and you're not invited and also just that fear of being alone and really the lunch table. mean the lunch table is the perfect picture that encapsulates the fear. Like where am I gonna sit? 

Who am I gonna sit with and do they want me there? ⁓ So what's the answer to this? encourage, okay, so here's the deal. We are all craving depth. We crave depth of connection. Kids all the time middle school and high school are not a deep place. It's a shallow place. And so we have to come in knowing that number one, number two, I encourage them, you will find your people. I promise you. I don't know when you will find your people who are life giving who you can be goofy with. But the best way to do that is to be open to connection. Lots of connections. 

So there's this term friend group. Everybody has a friend group and that's where they fit and that's where they feel safe, whether it's toxic or not. It's like this is where I belong. And I encourage kids as often as they will listen to me is to be open to a ton of connections. Don't limit yourself to that one friend group that you're holding on to for dear life. Open yourself to a ton of connections; opportunities to ask questions, to engage in conversations, to join clubs to join hobbies, even if your friend group isn't like yourself to connect with other people. 

Even if it's on a shallow level, if it's a team or a club or someone's wearing a hoodie of a band you like, or you ask about their Spotify playlist or what they're listening to on Netflix. Perfect. That's awesome. We're just looking for more a breadth of connection as opposed to limiting ourselves to this tiny group. And when we do that, when we're open to lots of connections, you never know where that instant, easy, life-giving, breath of fresh air friend is going to be there. Not only that, but number two, you have so many people you can talk to. When you walk into a classroom, you're not afraid of, my gosh, my friend isn't here.

Kaase Levell

It's so funny.

My mom always says to me, know, I was that girl who was nice to everybody and it's sort of nuanced and cliche. However, when you cast a wide net and you walk into a room of 30 people, if you've cast that wide net just being conversational, just being relational, just saying, hey, I listen to that band too. What's your favorite song? Like you just said, you are now opening up your world from knowing

two of the 30 kids in your class to knowing 22 of the kids in the class. And so all of sudden you have a rapport or a, even just like a buy-in, like there's just this friendly nature that exists now between you and all of these kids in your classroom that didn't exist before. Just because you were brave or courageous enough to say, I'm not gonna just like focus in on this one popular group. Like this is the end all be all as being in this popular friend group.

And then you've limited yourself and now you find yourself being like, well, they didn't accept me. So now I'm like in the 28 that I don't know. Right. So that's so good.

Jen Kacin 

Yeah, and you make yourself approachable as well. you are, so everyone is struggling with this fear, everyone, whether they're popular group or not, they are struggling with fear. And so if you're the one who's brave enough to be approachable, you will benefit from that. There will be kind people who are like, I like that girl or now I feel comfortable enough to talk to her and initiate too. ⁓ And so yeah, you nailed it. Brave and courageous.

Kaase Levell

Right. So good. So true.

Jen Kacin

And we literally choose it. We literally choose it. There's no, you're not going to feel it. Like I feel like having an awkward pushing through this awkward thing. We choose it because we know that it's worth it. And you mentioned that ⁓ element of everybody evaluating where they are on the level of ⁓ And cool is, it's so real, that pressure.

But it's so not a thing. Like it's not a real a real thing. It's not a fair way to judge people. So I ask kids to shift their mindset to connecting with hearts. So cool is this shallow assessment of an external ⁓ presentation of someone where in a deeper level, that's that's a heart that maybe you have things in common with that maybe will lift you up, that maybe you can lift them up.

I think it's very valid to say I don't have a lot in common with that person. That's totally valid. But to evaluate someone, they're not cool enough, or if I'm seen with them, I won't be cool enough. I just ask kids to stretch themselves to ⁓ be that open, brave person instead of evaluating yourself on where am I ranking and the cool factor.

Kaase Levell

So good. Yep. Thanks.

Jen Kacin

I choose to be brave, I choose to be open, I choose to be kind, and I choose to see people for their hearts.

Kaase Levell

So good, and I think, let's just be really honest, if we take this back to the Bible, Jen, I mean, this is Jesus' work on the ground playing out, right? He didn't choose the ones that we thought he would choose. He didn't choose the ones that were the obvious choice. He chose the sinners, he chose the lepers, he chose the weak and the ostracized, the marginalized, the ones that were left out. I mean, this could not be a more quintessential model for friendship in that.

look for the ones that maybe others are not looking for. Like you just never know how God's gonna show up and just enrich your life through these people. So just casting a wider net, not being so selective about it has to be these people. That's so good. Okay, love that. Okay, let's move on. My next question. How can girls know the difference between a disagreement, like a normal disagreement, and a friendship that's now...

crossing over the line of becoming emotionally unsafe. I wanna unpack this a little bit. I do a Bible study on Monday nights with some seventh grade girls. And not that that has a lot of drama in and of itself, but we come on Monday nights and we talk largely about friendships and drama. And I think a lot of times ⁓ there's these questions like, I being a good friend? Are they being a good friend? What qualifies a good friend? And I think that there is a threshold. There is a tipping point between, okay, this is normal.

Like we don't have a lot in common, but we are friends in spite of our differences. But now this, and this is normal versus, ⁓ this is actually, maybe I need to like red flag this and go talk to mom. Like this doesn't feel normal. This is crossing, this is actually making me feel unworthy. And I think one of the things that I wanna bring into light in lieu of this conversation is my seventh grade. 

She was kind to them, but then she was met with something unkind and really it was triggered by, it wasn't her, she takes that other person's stuff on. I will often find myself saying to you can't control her. You can only control you. And so I want to talk about, I want you to unpack a little bit for the girls listening, maybe that threshold between this is a normal disagreement because those are going to happen all the time versus this is becoming emotionally toxic or damaging or unsafe.

Jen Kacin 

Yeah, so much I want to say. So much more. So I pray that God will help me focus. So

Kaase Levell

I know, I know. Yes! Amen! So good!

Jen Kacin

I think that there's two different things happening in what you were saying; be kind to anyone. I can be kind to a homeless man on the street, but I will not give him my trust. I'm choosing to be kind because that's who I want to be, regardless of if somebody else responds in a negative or harsh or unkind way. I'm kind and someone's rude back,

I'm still going to choose to be who I'm going to be. I have to do work about it though, because now I feel ick, right? So I have to myself to say, you know what? This is still who I want to be and I'm not going to respond in kind. I'm not going to become nasty and rude back because that's what you're choosing to do.

Kaase Levell

Wow. Right.

Jen Kacin

Jesus would ask us to pray for that person. Sometimes I do that. try, I try.

Absolutely. I still want to come back to choosing to be the kind person that want to be. I

have to do some work, not only coaching my thoughts, but also doing something on purpose to get that ick feeling out of my body. So I tell kids all the time, someone just put threw “ick” at you; you are too precious to allow that to stick. 

You’ve got to do something on purpose with your body, with your energy to get that out of your body. And kids will say, well, I'll take a nap. I'll listen to music. I'll play video games. I'll watch TV. That's fine. We need time to veg for sure. But that's more of a pause. That's not doing something on purpose to get ick out of your body. So when you're doing something to shake the “ick,” it really looks like, being outside, doing something active, something artistic, something where you're creating music or you're singing or you're literally spending energy with something that's life-giving and is going to shake the “ick.” 

For me, it looks like taking a walk outside. That's best, my go-to. There is just something powerful about being outside, powerful about nature. Obviously, to me, the world is, nature is churched often to me.

Kaase Levell

Hey, amen.

Jen Kacin

Yeah, so just going outside literally 60 seconds. doesn't have to be a long thing. 60 seconds outside on purpose. You're choosing, you're inhaling, you're exhaling and you're shaking the ick. So the first piece. ⁓ We can be kind. We can give that out ⁓ because that's who we want to be. Speaking to the other side of that, when do we give our trust?

This is something that kids are not, and I am not always so good at evaluating. And I need to, I remind kids we're evaluating your trust level right now. So if that person did that, then that means that your trust is lower, which means that your expectation of them is lower, which means that your investment and your energy in that relationship is lower. It doesn't mean you hate them. doesn't mean you ghost them. doesn't mean you do a payback and you become, we do this gossip war.

My side, your side, it doesn't mean all that. It just means your trust is lower for them and that is an adjustment. Same thing. We got to do something to take care of our heart, our head, our mind, and our bodies when we're feeling hurt from that because we'll be disappointed, we'll be hurt. But if we're looking at it as, I'm evaluating my trust level right now, I need to make an adjustment how much I'm trusting this person. It's a healthier way, a healthier framework. To evaluate what just happened with that friend. And conversely, trust can go up, of course, right? You mentioned conflict.

When I see, okay, so conflict is 100 % normal. Humans are human, we're messy, as I said, we're a whole hot mess. is nothing as a perfect friend. We're going to disappoint, we're going to have misunderstandings. Healthy friends, though feel safe enough, the trust level is high enough that I can come to you and I can say that hurt.

And you are safe enough to say, I'm sorry, I never meant to hurt you. This is what I was thinking at the time. And then we make adjustments together.

An unsafe conflict. if you don't know, of course you're trying. We're new friends. I think I can trust you. I'm bringing something to you. Then, that friend flips it to be all my fault. They don't take, they don't care. They don't share, show caring or respect or concern. They don’t adjust that habit that now is a way to communicate respect to you. They don't adjust. They move on. They don’t carry the burden of the friendship. 

But, confidence can grow trust. If I come to you and I am vulnerable and you're safe for me, my trust is jumped for you.

Kaase Levell

Yeah.

Jen Kacin

And I think middle schoolers in particular and high schoolers and maybe even some adults, they define a friendship as someone who will keep their secrets. But, it’s so much deeper than that.

It's not about secrets. It's about safety. Safety to be imperfect, safety to be vulnerable, safety to laugh and be goofy. So.

Kaase Levell

Wow. So it’s so funny, I have to, I'm gonna piggyback really quick off of two things really quick. That's so good. 

So Lisa Terkeust, which is gonna be not known to any of the girls listening, but she wrote a book called Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. And she talks about this same concept. But what she does is she puts it on a scale of one to 10. So she says, Jen, you're safe and I trust you and I came to you with something really hard the other day. And instead of meeting me with, you shut down, you put it all back on me, you meet me with, I hear you, that's really hard, you validate me, you see me, you make me feel seen. 

So maybe, because we're new friends, maybe my trust with you was a number two, it was…but then I came to you in a time of need and you met me and you saw me and you validated me. Your trust from a two in a moment’s interaction went to a seven.

Right? Okay. But then you and I get in a disagreement over a boy that we both like. And this time you don't validate me. This time you're threatened. You feel called out. You feel exposed. And suddenly you meet me with harsh words, cutting words, unkind reaction. That seven now dropped back to a four.

Right? And I just think it's for kids listening, for girls listening, I just think it's an interesting visual to be able to say, okay, I can give a number, like you are worthy of an eight because you have handled my stuff safely versus, like you said, conversely, you not show empathy when I came to you and confided in you and trusted that this was gonna be a safe conversation. So now, even though our friendship did have this solid level eight trust, you now, I've had to dial you back to a four and that shifts what the relationship looks like.

So maybe that isn't, I'm gonna go to Sarah for a sleepover this weekend because Sarah went from an eight to a four this week with the way she handled my trustworthy conversation. And so then you kind of pivot. You're kind of shifting that friendship to say, you're not behaving in an eight manner, you're behaving in a four manner. So I just think what you're saying plays out if you use that scale of one to 10, this is a one friend, this is a 10 friend. And then those numbers make us treat and interact and engage with those people.

On that same level that kind of gives us a little more structure to like what you're saying. Does that make sense?

Jen Kacin

Absolutely, and it's so funny be I told you God gives me these brain drops because I do the thing I literally draw scale from zero to ten and So I talked to kids about that and what does ten look like what is to look like? is zero look like? What does zero mean? ⁓ And so yeah, that's so funny. I also just want to mention So let's say in an in that instance that you gave that example your friend responds defensively negatively.

Kaase Levell

Yeah. Love it.

Jen Kacin

we are human. even if in that moment, we look ugly, but we come back and we say, I'm so sorry, like I you know what I'm saying if they put in the effort to come back and say I messed up. Then, again, like that shows a deep level of trust and respect because for someone to say I'm sorry. Huge, And both sides take such bravery, such bravery to be vulnerable enough to say, hurt me, or to be brave enough to say, I'm sorry. Both require us choosing to be brave. And I also want choosing like that friendship is worth it to me. 

So I'm going to do now. I think it's a little, this isn't going to be a little fuzzy because in my experience with my, I've got an almost 11 and almost 13 year old girls. ⁓ Do you find that this age group, now I know we're kind of, I want to be all encompassing middle high school, but I would say, how do you feel this lands with the middle school dynamic?

Kaase Levell

Is this age group of girls or boys even capable of ownership on that level? Like acknowledging one, I was in the wrong, two, I'm humble enough and intuitive enough to say I'm sorry because I have the mindset that I don't want to lose this friend. That's a big concept. Yeah.

Jen Kacin

Yes, they're going to, they're absolutely capable of practicing and choosing and trying and failing and learning and growing and developing newer, healthier habits. Are they going to nail it? Girl, I haven't nailed it. You know? So, ⁓ yeah, I see middle schools, middle schoolers choose bravery all the time. I am

Kaase Levell

Okay. Okay. Good. So good. No. Right. Absolutely.

Jen Kacin

I'm inspired by them all the time. think what I want to mention because you mentioned like, you know, the up and down that can kind of happen with a friendship or the emotion. We have big, big feelings, especially in the middle school and high school season and adolescence. The feelings are massive. So even if something small happens, if there's been a pile up that day, there's a massive reaction, you know, things like that. And if a friend disappoints you,

Kaase Levell

Yeah.

Jen Kacin

The go-to is to ghost them, give attitude, pull friends away and say be on my side. That is the go-to reaction. And I just continue to encourage kids to have open hands, meaning…You're open to those connections we talked about earlier. You're also open to letting some trust go. You're also open to letting a person go. But when you let them go, it's not a, like a negative hand, you know, motion. Right. It's just, or, you know, choking or anything. It's not, it's not anything aggressive. It's just open hands because there's some trust that God will bring your people to you. 

He will. But we have to maintain that posture of open hands. It's hard and sometimes it hurts and we have to take care of ourselves. open hands. And so I ask kids all the time, let them go, but wish them well. Because they're not all of a sudden your enemy. not the devil. They are struggling with what they're struggling with. They haven't shown themselves to be a safe investment for your trust or for you to let them in.

Kaase Levell

So good. So good.

Jen Kacin

but let them go and wish them well. And then you can move on and your energy is not spent being bitter, angry, ⁓ nasty. Your energy can be spent being open to other things. Yes.

Kaase Levell

It makes me think of, sometimes will be met with an inappropriate reaction or response, right? So what we're not, some of the times I have to say to my daughter…yeah, that was an explosive reaction from her. That was unexpected. That was not really in line with who she is as her character. And what we're getting down to when we talk through this is, I don't know what was going on in her life that day. Maybe.

Mom and daughter had a blowout fight before school. Maybe mom and dad had a blowout fight before school. Maybe brother pinched her before school. Maybe they almost gotten a wreck on their way to school. I think so often all we see is this hurt me, that was unkind, that was inappropriate, that didn't match, the punishment didn't meet the crime. And I think so often we have to pause sometimes and say, I'm getting one side of this story. 

There's only one. And that's a big, again, that's a big concept for a middle school or a high school girl or boy. But I think it's super important that we always sort of shift perspective to say, I only get half of the story. I don't know where she's coming from today. I don't know what triggered her. Like this was just a normal friend conversation, but she would just like flew off the handle. Probably something else going on, right?

Jen Kacin

Absolutely. And I think I'm so glad you brought that up because friendships are there's time and there's history and there's trust takes time to build. I think that's something that middle schoolers actually do. ⁓ They trust too soon, right? They give all their trust too soon. When it takes time. ⁓ And same thing for for when we're evaluating trust being different or going down. There’s a build in that friendship and we need to take a wider lens to see like you said, this is not normal. 

Are you okay? You know what I mean? Is there anything wrong? And maybe in that moment, they're not able to talk. Fine. You know what I mean? But like maybe later you can check back in or you can just make yourself aware. Well, that was odd. And you have a little bit of a guard or a little bit of an evaluation, but it's not like, oh, I don't trust you anymore. You know what I mean? It's not like this. And trust should not go…zero,10, zero, 10, zero, 10, mean, we're talking, you know what I mean? It's incremental both ways, going up and going down.

Kaase Levell

So good. All right. I want to make sure that we touch on these other two things because I think it's super important and relevant to today's conversation and today's girls. So I want to go into boundaries. I know we talked a little bit about zero and 10, and I think that's good. My question is, sometimes girls think that setting boundaries is mean or unkind. What would you say to help them understand that boundaries are actually loving and maybe you can give an example of setting a boundary so that they see how this sort of plays out. 

I think they hear the terminology boundary, but I'm not sure that they really tangibly understand what that boundary looks like.

Jen Kacin 

Yeah, I think ⁓ a boundary in general, just the concept of the boundary, there's a negative, ⁓ I guess a negative connotation to it. So the best way I heard it taught to me to accept boundaries in my own life, really, to accept boundaries from God and all of that was that imagine you're walking toward the edge of a cliff. You're walking toward the edge of a cliff and there's no boundary, there's no fence, there's no warning…and you just fall off. 

Or we can put in a loving boundary that says, hey, look out, watch out, be aware. There's danger ahead. There's a fence that says beyond this point is danger. So boundaries are a protection. They're loving. ⁓ And I've learned to see God's boundaries that way. ⁓ But in a friendship…really when we're setting a boundary, we're really allowing someone to know our heart We're allowing them to be a friend to us. 

So I'm gonna give an example of extrovert introvert because I see this very often ⁓ beautiful friendships to balance and bless each other but sometimes conflict because Work the same they don't they're not fueled the same. So an extrovert is friends with an introvert and an introvert says… “No, I don't want to go out.” 

So the extrovert might be offended. “Well, fine, I guess we're not that good of friends.” And then the introvert is offended. “I guess you don't get me.” 

You know what I mean? 

Where as if we have a boundary conversation that says, I need the way I work is the what fills me up is right. ⁓ Or I feel disrespected when…these are “I statements” that allow our friends a glimpse into how we operate, into what fuels us, into what drains us. And it allows that friend to be a friend to us, to give us respect. 

If we don't communicate it, they have no chance. So we are being brave enough to ⁓ be vulnerable, but to allow this person to love us. When it's a good friend, when the trust is high enough, they want to, they want to know. 

And so if give them that insight, again, back to the example of introvert, extrovert, and the introvert says no, if the extrovert knows, okay, her battery is really low, and even the friend might say, my battery is super low right now, I need, you know, right, right. Then there's a level of understanding as opposed to, and growth and trust and all those things as opposed to it just being a conflict. So I think it's important that we're brave enough to use those I statements to say what I need as well as to say I'm sorry or I understand you or I see you. All of these statements are so huge.

Kaase Levell

Good. Yeah, right. Well, and I think the assumption, I think so often what I see in my own kids is they just assume the other one knows. That's ridiculous. Like even in a marriage, even in a lifetime friendship, I have a friend that I've been friends with forever. If I go into that friendship assuming that she should have known X, Y, or Z and then she didn't, that's the wrong expectation. So it's saying you're taking a posture of activeness versus passiveness. 

So you're not gonna just sit around and assume ⁓ Well, she knows that I'm extroverted and I need to go out and the other one's like I would love to go out with you But I don't have that to give right now I've had a really full day and it's drained my tank a simple two-sentence conversation can clear that up before it blows into and snowballs into this epic fallout just by getting out ahead of it and saying I'm not gonna assume that she knows so not functioning from a place of assumption, but saying… “we should talk about this.” 

Let's talk about it. Let's get it out in the open. And I think that's so good. I also am going to piggyback off of this boundary conversation. I had a friend tell me one time, they use an analogy, red light, yellow light, green light friends…not dissimilar from the zero to 10. It's very similar in the sense that it’s this is a friendship, but she did this. And I trusted her with something and she went and said something behind my back.

I am erecting a boundary out of safety, not out of hurt. 

And so maybe she was a definitive green light friend. This was someone we went to all the time. She came over to my house all the time. I went to her house. I felt safe in her house. She felt safe in my house. And all of a sudden she took something that was really sacred and she spilled it to everybody. She just went from a green light friend to a yellow light friend, not out of hurt. We don't react out of hurt. 

And now we can be hurt and we can feel hurt and that's real and we should sit with that. But again, it's sort of like a downgrade. You went from a green light friend that was trustworthy to a yellow light friend and now I'm erecting a boundary out of safety for myself, not out of hurt. 

And now I'm like, again, like what you said, throwing her under the bus. I'm out to like make your life miserable because you became untrustworthy, right? It's just erecting a boundary and saying, this is safe for me and I'm going to put a boundary up because you proved yourself untrustworthy. Yeah.

Jen Kacin (37:03)

Yeah, and now, I mean, not every friendship or trust level is safe for you to be vulnerable or say how you feel. So the higher levels, you can be a little more vulnerable and say how you feel. And so I would just say if it is a higher level trust ⁓ friend…and you are confused or disappointed or hurt by something they did or feeling totally disrespected by something they did, then that person has shown themselves historically to be worthy of you saying something. 

To be worthy of you saying, felt so disrespected when you did that. You've never done that before. What's going on? What happened? You're allowing that person to engage in a very difficult, very awkward conversation of conflict. It's not easy. You're never going to feel like…but it's worth it. 

We have to begin to evaluate things based on it's worth it ⁓ And again not just assume the worst of that person or drop them or you know So if they if they're a high-level friendship, then I would say engage in that conversation saying that hurt me. What what were you thinking? Allow them to say I'm sorry and then you still have you still have that yellow light You still are like I have some guards now But you're but you have been brave enough to say use your voice and say that wasn't okay with me and I think that

Kaase Levell

The alternative is you lose that friend altogether. 

Jen Kacin

Right, right. But even to say that, use our voice to say that wasn't okay, we have to be able to do that. We have to be able to that. And we have to be able to do that even in a classroom when someone is being rude to somebody else. That's not okay. You know, like be able to ⁓ use our voice, though we cannot control, like you said, we cannot control the reaction. Using our voice is so powerful. And I want ⁓ girls especially, but boys too, to be able to be brave enough to say that's not okay. I'm not okay with that. I'm out. That's not cool.

Kaase Levell

That’s a beautiful segue into how I want to wrap up today's conversation. my next question sort of lands on toxic patterns, recognizing them and responding to them. So Jen, what is a scenario where it's okay, is it okay to walk away from a friendship and what does that look like in a way that honors God? I mean, I think so much of the emphasis in the Bible is about community and we need people and being isolated and alone and lonely is never going to be the answer. In fact, God created humanity to be in connection with one another. 

He uses the analogy of we all are a body, part of the body. Like we all work together in unison. We need others. But what is that precipice of like, this is a friendship that is toxic. I've identified it. I've addressed it. I've kept it open-handed. I think it's at a point where I'm going to pivot and walk away. What would you say to someone who's maybe evaluating like, this is a friendship that actually needs to probably end?

Jen Kacin

Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ that is absolutely valid because again, going back to evaluating your trust, if you don't have trust for this person, then you reduce your energy, you reduce your investment, you reduce your expectation of that person, you don't then increase negative energy toward that person. You're reducing energy period, reducing your period, but you're not offering them hatred or attitude or side eye or gossip, that is all increasing your energy. It's all negative. 

So we're reducing our energy and saying, you know what, this is this has become a place where it's not safe or worthy of my investment or my energy. I'm going to put my energy elsewhere. And so then we're reevaluating where do I want to put my energy as opposed to being a victim and caught in this negative cycle. OK, where can I where is where is healthy for me to invest my energy? 

And how can I take care of myself to be in a healthy place? So again, getting that ick out of my body, coaching myself with what's true, and connecting with people who are life-giving. That is valid, to walk away from negativity and choose something healthy and safe and good for you. Absolutely valid. I think that God wants us to be discerning. Do we need to work with people we don't like? Absolutely. You're going to do group assignments when you're in school and when you're an adult in your job.

You're going to work with people you don't like, but we're choosing that kind posture and still evaluating our trust. I don't trust this person. I'm going to be kind. I'm going to be respectful. I'm going to do this assignment. I'm going to offer them a pencil. I'm going to keep it shallow. How was your day? have a good weekend. That's shallow. That's not trust. That's warm. That's just me being warm, but I'm not inviting them in to that sacred place of trust. And so if you are letting go of someone, again, letting them go, but wishing them well. 

There's another just layer of it, which is forgiveness. I tell kids all the time, forgiveness isn't because they deserve it. I don't deserve it. I still need it. You don't deserve it always. Like it's not something that is evaluating whether or not they deserve it. Forgiveness is because it allows us to let go of bitterness. It allows us to wish them well, to hope good things for them while still evaluating…I can forgive you without giving you my trust. 

Forgiveness is letting them go, letting bitterness go. It is not the same thing as trust. People say, forget, I totally disagree. That is stupid. We need to be aware of historical patterns and be aware of if this person is safe or trustworthy. Your forgiveness is absolutely separate and different then trust. And so if we can forgive with God's help, and I always say you choose it, you don't always feel it, your feelings will catch up if you keep choosing it. 

So I've had to forgive people multiple, multiple, multiple times, I forgive them, I forgive them until my feelings catch up. Right, exactly. But that's not the same thing as still putting myself in a position to be battered or bruised or giving them my trust that they haven't earned. No, no, no, no, Forgiveness can be walking away and letting them go.

Kaase Levell

Right, right. It may not be a one and done.

Jen Kacin

Absolutely.

Kaase Levell 

That's so good. Now, Jen, let me ask you, this is kind of surface level, but does that need to be a conversation? Is that, hey, Jen, this has become toxic. I don't think we should be friends anymore. Or can they just gracefully walk away and it doesn't need to be a conversation? I get that a lot, actually. Like, do I need to communicate to them? Like, we are no longer friends.

Jen Kacin

I think if the trust has gone incrementally down, like again, if this is a person who you have trusted historically for years and there's an issue, yeah, we talk about it, that friendship has earned that. But if it is going down, down, down and this person is a two or less in your trust scale, ⁓ no, I mean, I think you're you're reducing your energy. Again, you're not putting negative energy in, you're just reducing, you're pulling back, you're engaging elsewhere. And it will naturally…you'll naturally let them go. 

And then you're doing the work of saying, I'm not going to hope bad things on you. I'm going to hope good things for you. I'm going to forgive you. And I'm going to move on. have... I have nothing for you to worry about. Yes. Yeah.

Kaase Levell

It's best, it's healthiest for us in different ways. Yeah. And that's okay. We shouldn't feel guilt over that. That's so good. All right. We're gonna wrap up really quick. I'm gonna kind of tie two into one another. So I say, how can someone heal from a friendship that ended badly or really hurt them? So say that I'm the one who like you noticed, I noticed Jen pulled away. 

I noticed that this friendship that I thought was maybe better than it was, and maybe I wasn't acknowledging my own, I'm contributing to the trust going down. And now I'm sitting in this like, man, that feels yucky, that feels icky. Now I realize I was a bad friend. I realize I played a part and I didn't own that. But I think also what goes into that, and I'm gonna end with this question, how can knowing who we are in Christ help us have healthier friendships? I think so, how are we sitting on the dark side of not being a good friend? And then all of this has to predicate back to...

God made us to be in community with other people and in unison with other people. And I have a role in that. I play a role in that. And if I know who I am first, if I know that God called me, that I'm chosen, that I'm worthy, that I'm valuable, that I'm good, how does knowing that and accepting that, letting it actually penetrate my heart make me a better friend?

Jen Kacin

Yeah, I think as I mentioned, we are all a hot mess. None of us is perfect. We all need grace. And so if you're realizing I messed up and I just lost that friend and shame hits, rather than allowing shame to twist into lies of accusation and ⁓ self-loathing and things like that, we can say, Lord, help me learn how to be a better friend. Help me learn how to be safe. Help me learn healthier habits and ⁓ help me build healthier friendships. And so we can invite Jesus into our need because I need Jesus all the time. I just prayed this morning.

Yes, and for friends, absolutely. We all need grace. And I want to say that Jesus understands. He was hurt by friends. He was disappointed by friends. They left him. They abandoned him. They said they loved him and then they walked away. Jesus understands. And so He will meet you there and He will provide grace. And if you have your hands open, He will provide grace. 

And I want to read this scripture that means so much to me. ⁓ It's Deuteronomy 31.5. says, strong and courageous. Do not be afraid of them or terrified because of them for the Lord your God goes with you. ⁓ We can be brave and we can be courageous because there is never a moment that God isn't present. 

We are never alone. So that fear of being alone is a lie. We are never alone. And we can say, Lord, give me courage right now to go talk to that person and embrace the opportunity. Let's go. ⁓ And so we're never alone. And if we maintain openness to a ton of connections and we're celebrating all the different ways that people in our lives are a blessing, then we will always have a place to put our energy.

Kaase Levell

So good, Jen. That's so good. Okay, so I want to say, I think this sort of points back to my last question. I think that if I could summarize this conversation, high level details, three bullet points. One is the lens that we have. How are we viewing our friends? Are our hands surrendered to God? We're trusting He's with us. We're never alone. He is the one who equips us to be a good friend and creates us…as good friends for other people. 

So our perspective, what lens do we have? What glasses are on our eyes? Are we posturing ourselves for gratefulness for the friends that he has given us, trusting that when we maybe we lose a friend that he will bridge that gap and then casting a wide net because we need to make sure that if we're only putting our eggs into a few baskets and then that doesn't pan out or play out how we hoped, then we're like, okay, now I've got nothing. So when we cast a wide net and we have robust conversations with a lot of different people. 

We are opening up ourselves to a potential, a greater frequency or a greater likelihood that we're going to have more friends in more areas, in more places in our lives. And finally that ⁓ we can put up boundaries. It's okay to walk away from a toxic friendship. It's super important that we are identifying the level of trust that we should give other people and also that we are trying to create for other people like

I want to be a 10 trust for somebody else. I also want that friend to have my 10 trust level. it's mutually, you know, it's conversely like I need to be this, but I also need you to be that. Do you think those are good high level? Does that summarize sort of what we talked about today?

Jen Kacin

Yeah. Yes, it does beautifully. I want to just one quick thing because I want to make sure that expectations of girls are ⁓ balanced. Not everyone will be a 10. Not everyone will be an eight or a nine. It's not meant to be that way. You don't have the time or capacity to invest in that level of depth of friendship with everyone. There I do a visual of circles. So there's like an inner circle that's about three to five people…that are that level of investment and trust and depth. 

And this is coming from a 45-year-old woman, right? So in the stage of middle school and high school, nobody might have gotten to that place yet, or maybe a cousin, or maybe it's a sister or a parent. But as far as a lot of friends in that circle, we need to be really picky, and we need to be on guard for letting someone in that deep, and know that not everyone will get there….of good friends where the trust level is six to eight. They're good friends. 

You don't talk to them about everything, but you can celebrate that connection. And then there's friends that are more shallow and they're fun. And the trust level is two to four, you know, and it's a fun conversation. It stays shallow. That's also a gift. So I think we can celebrate all of those different connections and see them as a gift. And I also want to say that when we are brave and courageous and we talk to people and we open up to people, we are giving a gift too. It's not just all about what we get. 

You might be the person that someone else has been praying for. You might be the in their day that lifts them up. Your smile, you saying, hey, that's not cool when someone else, maybe you won't ever be their best friend, but maybe you just helped them feel seen and inspired their bravery or their courage. So putting ourselves out there can be worth it, not just for ourselves, but because of the impact we can have on people around us.

Kaase Levell

Wow, that is such a good note to end on, Jen. Like, nailed it. Well done. I love that so much. You guys, I'm going to connect all of these resources in the show notes, so don't hesitate for a second. I will hook you guys up with Jen, all of the resources she mentioned. You guys, this has been such a life-giving conversation. Jen, thank you so much for taking a little bit of time with us today to just cast a light over friendships and toxic behaviors and toxic patterns. Again, you guys, you can find Jen at www.compassTalks.com, you can find all the resources that Jen has to offer. 

This is for moms too, guys. If you found this to be enriching, share it with mom. There's so many good resources that Jen offers that I want you guys to be connected to. So thank you so much for joining us today, Jen. Such an enriching conversation and we will definitely have you on again in the future. And girls, ⁓ until next time, we will see you or talk to you soon.

Jen Kacin

Thank you.